Hello all...and Carly...been lookin at it too....check out Ro.9:21,22...some believe there are those MADE for destruction!...The subject of pre-destination is a very touchy one with most Christians. When I get to a verse that kinda drives me crazy, but I AM secure in my salvation, I do the only thing I can to stay sane.....I just ask the Lord to reveal the answer to me, then leave it alone! I can drive myself crazy striving for an answer that will not affect my salvation. If God wants me to know the answer, He will tell me if I ask. Then if that is not enough for me, I just remember that we are to come as little children...with THEIR faith. And in the end, as Pam reminds me...Jesus loves me, this I know...for the Bible tells me so! Thanks Carly, for the stimulating conversation!! mapk